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Post by jenbrook on May 23, 2009 5:19:17 GMT -5
I think any good parent is able to empathize with their child to the extent that they would try to understand what their child is going through, the best they can.. they have a stronger bond then race and thats love.
Maybe race only becomes an serious issue when a parent is racist or in denial of their offspring's biraciality and wants them to conform to resemble a monoracial child. Or another situation where race becomes an issue, is when a bi-racial child grows up with a single parent and relates only to their culture but feels a big void where that other side of them is missing.
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Post by meep on May 23, 2009 5:32:40 GMT -5
I think any good parent is able to empathize with their child to the extent that they would try to understand what their child is going through, the best they can.. they have a stronger bond then race and thats love. I agree with the love conquers thing. I think I mentioned it a few times in my other few posts. Maybe race only becomes an serious issue when a parent is racist or in denial of their offspring's biraciality and wants them to conform to resemble a monoracial child. Or another situation where race becomes an issue, is when a bi-racial child grows up with a single parent and relates only to their culture but feels a big void where that other side of them is missing. The first situation is possible when 'race' could become an issue. However, the first question that comes into mind is that: Why would someone procreate with someone of another race if that person is racist? Although racism could maybe develop later on, or the person could have been a victim of rape... and so on and so forth... (Good, point jenni The second situation could be less to do with a racial void than a cultural void. Also I think a void of not knowing who the other side of their family is as humans could take precedence over the cultural void. Although maybe not according to various circumstances. (Another good point, jenni )
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Post by halfbreed on May 23, 2009 5:43:38 GMT -5
Perhaps by race you mean culture? I think a mono racial is able to understand anyone of any culture, even the cultures that make up a biracial if that mono racial is culturally aware and open minded. Race does not play a part in this. I agree that anyone can understand any culture, but I think race plays a part in whether one wants to, and how one feels about the culture. To understand doesn't necessarily mean to accept. Using Subuatai as an example again, I'm sure he would know quite a bit about Chinese and Swedish culture now, but he still has his reservations about the people. He said he hated them for certain events that happened. Though they've passed, his doubts remain. It seems that race and culture are intertwined in a way that means a race is always associated with both its past and present corresponding culture. Though Subuatai didn't experience those events and though the people have changed, he feels/felt bitter because he's attached to his Mongolian heritage. It's like race is a bias kind of magnet... it draws us to stick to certain cultures. So, like, even though someone may understand or be aware of this or that, there may be innate/instinctive things that make them uncomfortable when exposed to it in certain ways (i.e. their offspring speaking in languages they don't understand). (I'm not sure, these are just thoughts)
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Post by meep on May 23, 2009 6:20:38 GMT -5
Perhaps by race you mean culture? I think a mono racial is able to understand anyone of any culture, even the cultures that make up a biracial if that mono racial is culturally aware and open minded. Race does not play a part in this. I agree that anyone can understand any culture, but I think race plays a part in whether one wants to, and how one feels about the culture. To understand doesn't necessarily mean to accept. Using Subuatai as an example again, I'm sure he would know quite a bit about Chinese and Swedish culture now, but he still has his reservations about the people. He said he hated them for certain events that happened. Though they've passed, his doubts remain. It seems that race and culture are intertwined in a way that means a race is always associated with both its past and present corresponding culture. Though Subuatai didn't experience those events and though the people have changed, he feels/felt bitter because he's attached to his Mongolian heritage. It's like race is a bias kind of magnet... it draws us to stick to certain cultures. So, like, even though someone may understand or be aware of this or that, there may be innate/instinctive things that make them uncomfortable when exposed to it in certain ways (i.e. their offspring speaking in languages they don't understand). (I'm not sure, these are just thoughts) I don't understand how you personally define and differentiate between race and culture. Could you please tell me? You say that they are intertwined and that race plays a part in whether one wants to accept a culture, but what do you mean by race in this? Does not culture and one's own contextual stance also determine whether one wants to understand and accept a particular culture? What I am getting at here is that race is merely a social construct. As for Subuatai, I find his hatred for Chinese and Swedes unfounded and racist. I have nothing against Subuatai, but all I am saying is that I cannot understand where the hatred stems from. Because I am partially Chinese, and because historically the Chinese were attacked by the Japanese, and humiliated by the Europeans, I should feel hatred for such people. But I don't. Race is therefore not a bias kind of magnet. If I were a Chinese person in times of the Sino-Japanese war, a Chinese boxer in the boxer Rebellion I would feel hatred for such people BUT not because they are Japanese and European, rather because they are killing my friends and family, and exploiting my country, causing economic dislocation. I hate them because of what they do, rather than their race. Sure I may seek to kill the Japanese and Europeans by means of their racial appearance, but the hatred that drives me to do so is because of their actions. I hope that made sense.
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Post by halfbreed on May 23, 2009 6:48:20 GMT -5
I think race is your blood and culture is... culture. But I think certain races are associated with certain cultures. The actions of the Chinese may fall under the culture category and so, cause (some) people to associate those actions with that group's corresponding associated race. As for one's own race, it seems most people like to take pride in their associated cultures. (Part of adopting this may include being hostile or stand-offish toward "enemy" cultures/races.) I dunno, I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm just making amateur observations... I think you have a pretty evolved way of thinking, which is why it might seem really stupid. ;P
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Post by jenbrook on May 23, 2009 6:53:23 GMT -5
The first situation is possible when 'race' could become an issue. However, the first question that comes into mind is that: Why would someone procreate with someone of another race if that person is racist? Although racism could maybe develop later on, or the person could have been a victim of rape... and so on and so forth... (Good, point jenni The second situation could be less to do with a racial void than a cultural void. Also I think a void of not knowing who the other side of their family is as humans could take precedence over the cultural void. Although maybe not according to various circumstances. (Another good point, jenni ) Yea, good point, i think that what i am referring to first and foremost is culture. I guess there is a difference between being bi-racial and bi-cultural.. A person can be one or the other or both. Under the context of a bi-racial, mono-cultural child being raised by a mono-racial, mono-cultural parent, the child's physical appearance might be highlighted by family members or peers and they could be labelled as a foreigner despite the fact that one culture is the only one they know. So their race seperates them from truly belonging to the only thing they are able to identify. This probably applies more to bi-racial people who grow up in less multi-cultural societies.. Someone growing up in larger cities in north america europe and australia would probably have fewer issues.
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Post by Subuatai on May 23, 2009 7:10:05 GMT -5
The racism that I had was not completely Nazi-like - not yet. And it's FAR from just "historical". Deep inside I still had the mentality that only two human races existed; human beings, then human trash. But unfortunately I also had a nasty habit of labelling some cultures as "training grounds for human trash". Despite my admittance in harbouring hatred against such people, I was still conscious of morality to try and judge everyone on an individual basis - but the catch was this; once they slip, once they start acting like what I considered "typical Norse or typical Sino", then I placed them into the human trash category. I never met many Swedes to be honest, so the hatred is considerably less, especially when two of my cousins live in Sweden; my cousin sister has a Swedish boyfriend and my cousin brother has married a Swedish girl - and they tell me their experiences. Unfortunately, not just from them but from others who told me of their experiences; They won't deny that some aspects of Swedish culture still proudly - but subtly - enforced the racial values of their past. Such as this, being as subtle as ever: As for Chinese people however, it's not just present events that drives the hatred, I have also been insulted repeatedly by Chinese all my life for my heritage, and many despise Mongol culture. I am also reminded of "Why I should hate Chinese" thanks to my mother-in-law who has drove me to extensive lengths of frustration over the last 3 years and even now with her granddaughter on the way. However, I hope to build a strong family one day, and I'm hoping relations will change between me and her once Heaven is born. Now due to my wife's individual charm and personality, I found it difficult be racist against her the majority of the time. But I just did not want the relationship to get serious (yet at the same time I wanted it - it was kinda mind-glogging). Hence I threw her race in her face trying to push her away and pushed her away I did repeatedly. Very childish to be honest looking back. Now I can go on and on and on about why I hate this and hate that. But the truth is past is past. I got into a rather heated debate after I returned from holidays on a Mongolian forum, here; forum.asuultserver.com/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=135622&start=0 . Trying to convince my own people not to be racist, attempting to show them that I understand their reasons completely. But trying to lead Mongols - where each of us has a very fiercely independent mind, it's near impossible. WARNING: If you are easily offended don't bother to read it
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Post by halfbreed on May 23, 2009 7:12:51 GMT -5
I think any good parent is able to empathize with their child to the extent that they would try to understand what their child is going through, the best they can.. they have a stronger bond then race and thats love. Yes, I think there'd be love between parent and child regardless of race, but I wonder if, and to what extent, the child's race would affect the amount of love possible. As in, might a monoracial love their monoracial child more than their biracial child? the first question that comes into mind is that: Why would someone procreate with someone of another race if that person is racist? Although racism could maybe develop later on, or the person could have been a victim of rape... and so on and so forth... To add to the list: it might be one of those things where people throw themselves into what they're afraid of. Maybe they know they're extremely racist, so they go out of their way to prove to themselves, and others, otherwise.
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Post by Subuatai on May 23, 2009 7:18:52 GMT -5
There are quite a few 1/64 Mongols today scattered around the world who call themselves Mongol. I have to agree with your edited statement.
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Post by jenbrook on May 23, 2009 7:23:28 GMT -5
Yes, I think there'd be love between parent and child regardless of race, but I wonder if, and to what extent, the child's race would affect the amount of love possible. As in, might a monoracial love their monoracial child more than their biracial child? Parents who hold back love for their children because of race, sexual orientation, birth defects etc are bad parents period. I think that ceases to be an issue about race and more of a question of morality..
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Post by halfbreed on May 23, 2009 7:28:03 GMT -5
It's not really about arguing what should or shouldn't be the case. It's about seeing what the case actually is. Race shouldn't matter, but does it?
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Post by Subuatai on May 23, 2009 7:31:39 GMT -5
Children can change parents, even before they are born. Personal views change, priorities shift, and a new world opens up. For the topic starter's original example of a Caucasian guy who does not wish a half-Asian child, perhaps he may change his mind once it happens.
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Post by jenbrook on May 23, 2009 7:32:42 GMT -5
Now due to my wife's individual charm and personality, I found it difficult be racist against her the majority of the time. But I just did not want the relationship to get serious (yet at the same time I wanted it - it was kinda mind-glogging). Hence I threw her race in her face trying to push her away and pushed her away I did repeatedly. Very childish to be honest looking back. The fact that your wife stayed with you after all that shows her strength in character.. She seems much more forgiving and open-minded then you, realizing that you would come around eventually. Look at how far you've come .. And you get to make a brand new start, marked by the birth of your beautiful mixed baby girl! I think your new family will be the best thing that has ever happened to you . I have faith in the fact you will start to accept your wife's background as she has accepted yours.
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Post by jenbrook on May 23, 2009 7:45:35 GMT -5
It's not really about arguing what should or shouldn't be the case. It's about seeing what the case actually is. Race shouldn't matter, but does it? I think it does.. Race plays a big part in how most people on this planet culturally identify themselves. I think the point robyn was making is that because race is a social construct, people's perspective on how it relates to a person's culture is changing quite rapidly and that whole race linked to culture thing is no longer applicable to some people. And also there are all those technicalities.. say you're ethinically mongol but grew up in iran.. or ethinically chinese but grew up in malaysia.. you get the idea. Like subuatai (sorry to use you as an example.. yet again haha), his father in law is a swedish-australian. I would assume that the main culture he identifies with is australian, not swedish despite the fact that his DNA is nordic. He then ceases to be swedish, but becomes swedish-australian, which is something entirely different i think. But through subuatai's eyes he is straight traditional nordic, lives like a nordic, thinks like one, embodies all the characteristics he hates about swedes.. so to him race and culture become one. So really it depends on the set of eyes you have.+ [edit - sorry subuatai, i mean thats how you used to think, but i'm sure that has changed now]
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Post by meep on May 23, 2009 7:46:59 GMT -5
The racism that I had was not completely Nazi-like - not yet. And it's FAR from just "historical". Deep inside I still had the mentality that only two human races existed; human beings, then human trash. But unfortunately I also had a nasty habit of labelling some cultures as "training grounds for human trash". Despite my admittance in harbouring hatred against such people, I was still conscious of morality to try and judge everyone on an individual basis - but the catch was this; once they slip, once they start acting like what I considered "typical Norse or typical Sino", then I placed them into the human trash category. I never met many Swedes to be honest, so the hatred is considerably less, especially when two of my cousins live in Sweden; my cousin sister has a Swedish boyfriend and my cousin brother has married a Swedish girl - and they tell me their experiences. Unfortunately, not just from them but from others who told me of their experiences; They won't deny that some aspects of Swedish culture still proudly - but subtly - enforced the racial values of their past. Such as this, being as subtle as ever: As for Chinese people however, it's not just present events that drives the hatred, I have also been insulted repeatedly by Chinese all my life for my heritage, and many despise Mongol culture. I am also reminded of "Why I should hate Chinese" thanks to my mother-in-law who has drove me to extensive lengths of frustration over the last 3 years and even now with her granddaughter on the way. However, I hope to build a strong family one day, and I'm hoping relations will change between me and her once Heaven is born. Now due to my wife's individual charm and personality, I found it difficult be racist against her the majority of the time. But I just did not want the relationship to get serious (yet at the same time I wanted it - it was kinda mind-glogging). Hence I threw her race in her face trying to push her away and pushed her away I did repeatedly. Very childish to be honest looking back. Now I can go on and on and on about why I hate this and hate that. But the truth is past is past. I got into a rather heated debate after I returned from holidays on a Mongolian forum, here; forum.asuultserver.com/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=135622&start=0 . Trying to convince my own people not to be racist, attempting to show them that I understand their reasons completely. But trying to lead Mongols - where each of us has a very fiercely independent mind, it's near impossible. WARNING: If you are easily offended don't bother to read it How on earth did you fare living in a multi cultural city like Sydney? (provided that that is where you live and have lived, and if not, a multicultural, predominantly white nation-state that is Australia?)
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